Funnel Optimization Strategies: Josh Doody

Keith:                    Hey, this is Keith from SegMetrics with data beats opinion. Today we’re here with Josh Doody, of Fearless Salary Negotiation. Josh is a salary negotiation coach who helps experienced software developers and negotiate job offers from big tech companies. He also wrote Fearless Salary Negotiation of course, A Step‑By‑step Guide to Getting Paid What You’re worth. Josh, thanks so much for joining us, man.

Josh Doody:        Thank you for having me on. It’s going to be here.

Keith:                    It’s going to be fun. So we’ve talked a lot before a lot about funnel optimization and I think you and I both have very similar ideas and strategies about what it takes and what you should be doing in order to, optimize a funnel. Right? So what are the points that you should be focusing on stuff? And I’d love to talk a little bit about your strategy as you were optimizing your funnel for fearless salary negotiation.

Josh Doody:        Sure. That sounds like a lot of fun. Where you want to start.

Keith:                    Well, let’s start at … let’s give a little bit of background. So what is the offer? What kind of thing are you giving people and what’s your funnel look like? I guess at a top level?

Josh Doody:        Sure. So I’ve identified really three different types of things that people are looking for help for. With respect to kind of my universe of salary negotiation, those three things are, I have a job offer right now and I need to negotiate it. Usually that’s almost like a panic response. Like people get an offer, they immediately kind of realize I probably should do something other than just accept this, but I don’t know what to do. And so they start looking for help.

Josh Doody:        Then there’s people who are currently interviewing and they’re kind of looking ahead and usually they want just help answering interview questions or they’re asked about their salary expectations and current and salary history during their interviews. And that kind of clues, the man that maybe they’re already negotiating or there might be pitfalls they should avoid and say, look for help with that.

Josh Doody:        And then the third is people who are still at their company, they’re pretty happy there, but they feel like they’re underpaid and they want to see if they can get a raise. So, that’s a salary negotiation of a different type from like a new job offer. So, that’s the sort of general area that I work from. It’s kind of how my book is broken down and those are the three types of people that are usually looking for help that I tried to try to provide them. And this is something that people, I think if they don’t have experience with it, they have no idea about what a base salary is in their area or what they’re actually worth.

Josh Doody:        I think, in the US we have a lot of taboos around discussing salary and especially with your coworkers and staff. And it’s interesting because people have no idea what they’re worth. I’ve talked to people in companies that working alongside me that we’re being paid twice as much or half as much as me. I do it for doing the same job. That’s really common. That’s kind of a supporting chapter in my book. So there’s one of the early chapters is how to estimate your market value. And I lay out kind of my process for doing that because I think it is a really important thing to do for all three of those types of people that I described. And usually it’s really about just getting, a baseline for your own expectations of what you think is happening.

Josh Doody:        So for example, if you’re expecting a job offer, it really helps to have an idea before you get that offer of like, what do I think my market value is, so that you can compare your job offer not to what you’d like to make, or what would feel good to make this sort of what the data tells you as an approximate range for your offer. Whereas if you’re maybe pursuing a raise at your current job, I advocate that you’ve asked for a very specific raise to a specific number to take, work off of your manager’s plate to kind of spoon feed them everything they need. And of course a big part of asking for the right number is understanding what your market value is, in your region or in your industry and in your company. So that’s, that’s definitely sort of a, … it’s an undercurrent.

Josh Doody:        Everything that I do is having some way to baseline and kind of understand your own expectations and to have realistic expectations, but also to have something to start from so that you’re not just completely blue skying your process or what you’re asking for, what you’re hoping for.

Keith:                    Right. And through that process, I assume, does that feed into the marketing funnel at all? Are you using that data about what people, what industries people are in or what areas people are in, in order to inform that decision through the marketing funnel as well?

Josh Doody:        A little bit. So I do some surveying on my side. I use a tool called write message. [crosstalk 00:04:28] We’d like to see message. You and I both know Brennan Dunn over at RightMessage and Shai. And so I use that tool. I don’t use it directly right now. So this is probably a gap in my marketing but I survey people using right matches just to figure out like what is the breakdown of the the kind of person who hits my site look like.

Josh Doody:        And the reason I’m doing that is really more to inform maybe pricing on products and how I pitch things to people. Understanding that you know, this is the sort of modal person that is hitting my site through my marketing funnel, which I know you and I are going to talk more about like how they hit my site and all that good stuff.

Josh Doody:        But I use it now as sort of a passive way to understand, if I’m trying to pitch sort of a general pitch, what does it need to look like, who does it need to address? And I do that by, among other things, collecting data from people on what their income level is, how many jobs they’ve had when industry, air and that kind of thing.

Keith:                    Interesting. And then able to, I think in the future funnel that into the marketing. So you’re able to build out different campaigns that say, “Okay, if they’re in this industry, send them this. If they’re in this income bracket, send them this kind of thing.”

Josh Doody:        And what I do with that right now, so I do one sort of … it’s, it’s almost like a quick and dirty way of doing this, but I use right message to do, which is I ask some questions. The first one is, what brings you here today? What can I help you with? And it basically is segmenting them into those three segments that I mentioned earlier. And then if they fall into the, I need to negotiate a job, offer segment, then I ask about income and experience level and if their income and experience level are aligned with the people that I coached that the best results, then I’ll ask them, are you in tech? And if you’re in tech, are you going to one of the big five tech companies in which one?

Josh Doody:        And then I can point them to resources or even just to my coaching offering to say, “Hey, I think you’re a good candidate for this. It might be a good fit for you to take a look.”

Josh Doody:        Interesting. So that’s the only way that I really used that data actually segment people in it and I do segment people that way. So that’s the kind of high level of should you go into my no DIY product funnel or should you go into my coaching premium offering funnel?

Keith:                    And that’s something I’ve seen that performs really well. Now are you doing that before they opt in or is that as part of like the opt-in process or is that after they’ve opted in for some sort of lead magnet?

Josh Doody:        That’s before opting in. And so basically what I’ll do is if they look like a good coaching candidate, I’ll send them to the coaching side of things, which doesn’t offer lead magnets. It just offers information and an application button or I’ll send them over on the other side too the lead magnet funnel where I’ll say, here’s a thing that I think might help you with your situation and kind of get them into that funnel and begin offering them free material to help them with their situation and to nurture them and hopefully eventually maybe convert them to being a customer.

Keith:                    Interesting. So let’s take that back a little bit. Let’s talk about the top level of the funnel. So we’ve talked about you do have opt in magnets, but you are separating people into those coaching and kind of non coaching clients. What does that kind of look like at the top of the funnel and as they flow through?

Josh Doody:        So this is really interesting because I think you have a lot more experience with this than I do, but there are, not infinite, but certainly scores of possible sort of marketing channels that could lead into a funnel. Right? And so you start kind of on the outside with like where are people even coming from? And then they end up in a funnel.

Josh Doody:        And so for me, what I found through the first couple of years of my business, I did a lot of experimenting with just different marketing channels mostly inbound and trying to figure out like what worked. And what I found was that I, a couple of things from my particular business revolve around this idea that I call the timing problem, which is for most of the people who find me and need help, they need help now.That’s not always true.

Josh Doody:        But for most of the people, more than 50% of the people they need help now. And so the first thing I did was just experiment with a lot of different channels. And what I found was that the best way to help people is to answer questions that they have. And so for example, my first kind of big win as a marketing channel was Quora, where I would just go look for questions that were people were asking that I thought were useful and I would, put a good answer up there. And by good answer, I mean a really complete good answer to that actual question and then, Oh by the way, here’s an article where you can read more or learn more about my book or my brand or whatever.

Josh Doody:        And that was the first time I remember with Quora was where I got one new subscriber a day or more for an entire month. Right? I can see my little graph and I was like, okay, so I’m above zero subscribers a day, everyday for a month. And as I kind of zoomed out and thought about that, I thought, well how do I scale this? Because I was spending a lot of time answering questions on Quora. I mean every morning I would get up at like 7:00, 7:15 I would answer at least one or two questions a day. And I did that for, like a month stretch or something.

Josh Doody:        And what I found was just like everything else, 80, 20 some of those would have really big impact. Big results, get a lot of traction, a lot of views a lot of uploads, a lot of comments. And some of them were just go nowhere and they all took about the same amount of time to answer. So I said, “Well, how do I scale this?”

Josh Doody:        And what I realized was, well, what’s that ultimately happening here is people have a problem. They have a question, they type in that question to Quora and asked Quora and then Quora shows them answer and the way that scales already existed, which is Google. Right? And Google’s a bigger version of Quora that points at Quora among other things like Stack Overflow or whatever. They’re not necessarily even searching on Quora. They’re searching on Google, which then takes them to the Quora question.

Josh Doody:        A lot of times I think that’s true. And so I thought, well, there’s no way I can spend an hour a day writing answers to Quora questions. I just can’t do it. And it is great because it got me traction and it actually helped me to start kind of growing my email list in a meaningful way. But then that’s when I realized that SEO was probably a better play for me.

Josh Doody:        This was also aided by our mutual friend Patrick McKenzie. Who you gave me advice and I think it was 2015 but he said “You need to get more traffic to your site” Because he knew I was trying to sell my book on courses I was early in the business. And what I heard was you need to get better at SEO. I don’t think that’s Patrick-

Keith:                    I don’t know. Patrick’s pretty big into SEO. I think that’s probably, that was the under tech stuff.

Josh Doody:        I think that’s why I interpreted it that way. I think he may have meant more like I don’t know, like warm inbound like podcast tours and guess blog posts and stuff. And I think he probably included SEO there, but I just heard get good at SEO. So I said I’m going to get good at SEO.

Josh Doody:        So I set a goal of 100,000 visitors a month through SEO. And of course at the time I was at like 150 or something a negligible amount. Right? And I just started cranking. And so that’s where I kind of, I had tried many marketing channels. I’m not talking about all this here, but I found that Google search was a way that I could get traction. I like to write, I’m good at teaching. And so content marketing is a natural Avenue for me too. Offer help to people and then also to get them to come when they need the kind of help I offer to find me and then to basically create a top of funnel for my business. And so, so that’s the long way of me saying, so the top of my funnel looks like Google search. Ultimately.

Keith:                    So do you mind me asking how long did it take you to hit your goal from that 2015 conversation to getting the traffic that you were happy with SEO? Because I know SEO is a long play game, which is why a lot of people do Facebook instead because it’s faster.

Josh Doody:        Facebook is faster. But it’s less durable. In my opinion, and it’s a lot more expensive. And I will now asterisk in terms of dollars spent. Obviously SEO is very time intensive early on. So it took me, I think it was pretty close to three years. From the time that I just said, “Oh, I need to get more traffic.” Until I look and said, “Oh, I had 100,000 visitors this month.”

Keith:                    That was amazing.

Josh Doody:        It was like early to mid 2018 and then was when I had the 100K and so you look back and it was like early to mid 2015 when Patrick said that to me. And of course that it looks like a hockey stick when you zoom out. Right? Like it wasn’t like a straight line. It was like very slow. And the way that I measured it actually I don’t know if you’re familiar with Justin Jackson’s MegaMaker club is MegaMaker community.

Keith:                    Yeah.

Josh Doody:        But I was really early in there and I would post, like, I decided to do my goals in such a way. So I’d say, well, let’s say I’m getting, 100 visitors a week right now. So my first goal was, I need to get, a 1000 visitors a month, right. Because a hundred a week is about 400 a month. And I was like, so I’ll get a 1000 a month and then I’ll try to get a 1000 a week, which was about 4,000 a month. And then I’ll go from, 4,000 or a 1000 a week too one day.

Josh Doody:        Well eventually, and then like 10,000 a month and then 10,000 a weekend, then a hundred thousand a month. So that’s how I did it was sort of in those 10 those logarithmic little, increments there. And it was, cool to like crest, do a little strike-through in Slack and be like straight through 1000 visitors a week.

Josh Doody:        And so that’s how I did it. And it took about three years of sort of, there was some luck involved, but sort of carefully engineering, for this, this funnel, this is a topic that seems to resonate with them. I’m going to go really deep on this topic and do a good job of getting onto the first page and getting search traffic. And I think SEO you’re really becomes a discounted skill, content creation included in that SEO, just getting that search because the Facebook, it’s really easy to start, all it costs us money. You don’t have to be good at creating real, I guess solid content that Google picks up on, right? It can be more adze, it can be more salesy. It doesn’t have to be really strong content until you get deeper into the funnel.

Josh Doody:        But I think SEO is really the engine that runs most successful businesses. I think Facebook is great for those spurts for getting started, but the strategies that you have with just researching those keywords, finding out what converts, and then building that into a strong engine, that SEO, unless Google does something horrible, like you’ve got that forever, right?

Keith:                    Yeah.

Josh Doody:        And it’s going to keep generating leads. And I found that to be true. I’ve gotten, I haven’t really done any meaningful SEO work in probably two years, and I think I’m a little bit down right now. I’m at like, let’s say 85 or 90K organic visitors a month. Right? Which is it’d be nice to be at a hundred even, but whatever.

Keith:                    But if you’re not touching it in two years right?

Josh Doody:        I mean, I, I’m trying to remember like when’s the last time I really did meaningful SEO work and I honestly can’t remember it. You spend months and months and probably over a year since I did anything, real. And there was some things kind of on my list of to do’s, but there are other things that I think that are hired to, to generate revenues. So I focus on those, but it’s durable. It doesn’t cost me money now. So I’m getting a huge ROI and early on, okay, I know that you know this from your own experience, early on in the business you sometimes you just have to do things that don’t scale you invest a lot of time hoping to get a pay off down the road. And for me that was, going really deep on these, 10,000 word articles that are extremely deep and detailed and giving a lot of information that I could then turn into an SEO magnet for Google and then, further down funnel to get traction there.

Josh Doody:        And then I get to set it and forget it and come back two years later and say, yes, I’m still getting tons of traffic to that article and now I can optimize, further down the funnel for it. Whereas if you’re doing Facebook ads as soon as you turn off the spigot to Facebook, they turn off-

Keith:                    It’s gone.

Josh Doody:        Into your site, it just disappears. And and you’ve got no social proof from that. You got no SEO. As soon as you turn off, like you said it just off, like you’re not even getting a trickle at that point.

Keith:                    Yeah. I mean just totally disappear.

Josh Doody:        So I’m happy that I over index kind of early on, on SEO and it continues to pay dividends for top of funnel traffic to my site.

Keith:                    I think I had told a story before, but I love this story that we had a client we were working with that had some really well converting SEO pages. We didn’t know that they were SEO when we were talking to them and says, “You’re getting like $2 leads off of these off peak pages, like this is amazing. How much are you spending to get that in? It’s like nothing. It’s all SEO” And it’s like “You mean you’re getting $2. Everyone who opts in for this is worth $2 and you’re not paying anything for it.” I mean, that’s amazing. Like that’s a business right there.

Josh Doody:        Here’s the really interesting thing. And, I think we’re going to talk more about product funnels and things, but the really interesting thing is that once I built up my site to be basically respected by Google, so that pointed people to me. And I kind of decided about … Two and a half years ago I decided I’m going to really focus on coaching as my primary business and then do the product businesses as sort of my secondary business or not quite side hustle. It’s a little more valuable than that. But it’s not my primary focus. The first, the first thing I do is coach. And then I also sell products.

Josh Doody:        But when I decided to do that, I was able to use that SEO machine that I had built to start pointing people to my coaching funnel. And so there are certain searches, for example, like I focus on the big five tech companies. So if you just Google, Amazon salary negotiation, Apple salary negotiation, Facebook, Google, a Microsoft, any of those salary negotiation or even I think Job offer, I’m the first hit. Like I outrank Google for Google job offer type stuff, right?

Josh Doody:        And that goes to a page that says, “Here’s how to negotiate your Google job offer. Here’s what to expect, here’s what it looks like, here’s what they’re thinking, here’s what to look out for, here are pitfalls and here’s what you should be doing. And then, Oh by the way, at the bottom, do you want to help negotiating this offer if you do, click here and apply for my coaching. And so those leads are worth thousands of dollars and they’re free. And it was really easy to generate lots of traffic. I get thousands of visitors a month to those pages. And then, some of them filter through it apply and from some of those I work with them eventually.

Josh Doody:        But that’s all I built the SEO machine for my articles and content marketing, totally diagnostic of coaching. And so there are big effects there where the leads that come through those, I mean, I don’t know what the dollars per lead is, but it’s got to be, per visitor on the page. It’s probably a dollar $2 or something like that when I’m closing crazy multiple thousand dollar deals and I didn’t do anything different. All I did was said, “Huh. This is interesting”.

Josh Doody:        A lot of people that come to me or apparently looking for help negotiating Amazon job offers, I’m going to write an article about that. A lot of traffic comes in and it all goes to coaching. So there have knock on effects to SEO too. Which again, going back to Facebook ads, there is no knock on effect or Facebook yet. Because yeah. Longterm traction from it.

Josh Doody:        Because as your site page rank or your site rank increases, anything that you put out has more clout automatically right away. And if you know exactly who’s … like if someone’s searching for Amazon salary negotiation, you know exactly what they’re looking for, right?

Keith:                    Yes.

Josh Doody:        And so they go to that page, do you know exactly what you’re supposed to sell them on? You’re not supposed to sell them on a $5 ebook. You’re supposed to sell them on $1,000 coaching because any negotiation they’re able to do in that job search is monetarily just hundreds of thousands of dollars for that. Right. The return on investment

Keith:                    Is huge.

Josh Doody:        Exactly. So I know that that’s a little, a little side quest, but I think it’s really interesting that I didn’t anticipate that. That’s, I think that’s the most fun thing for me about running a business is you do something and then you get a benefit later and you’re like, well, I didn’t anticipate that. I’d like to tell you that I set out to get lots of some traffic and SEO because I thought one day I could get multiple thousand dollar coaching leads out of it, but I had no idea that was going to happen. It just so happens that because I focus on SEO and creating good content, not doing black hat stuff or even gray hat stuff, but all just white hat SEO, good content, let Google know that I exist and let people find me when they need me. That later on I was able to parlay that into high dollar coaching leads.

Keith:                    And I do want to move onto your funnel, but I want to mention one thing real quick that you mentioned, which was that gray hat, black hat side of stuff and people are always asking like, “Oh, what’s the next SEO strategy? Like how do you get to, how do you rank quickly and all this stuff.”

Josh Doody:        It’s like the strategy never really changes. The strategy is build good content. Anytime you try to game the system in the next update or maybe two updates or three updates down, Google’s just going to bring down the hammer. And I’ve had so many people who try to game the system and they lost so much traffic. And it takes, it takes longer to do it, sort of the quote unquote right way. Right. Like you can do black hat stuff and like really spike quickly, but if you do it the right way, then you’re much more durable and you get, sort of longer lasting effects in your … I’m always subject to the whims of Google and what they do, but I think I’m less sort of at risk for being smacked down by Google because I’m not doing anything to try and exploit Google or their algorithm. I’m just trying to create good content and the only thing that I really pay attention to Google for is like, if I can understand more about what they consider to be good content or what they’re promoting right now, or what their best practices are.

Josh Doody:        But not trying to game the system, just trying to make sure that I understand what they think is good content so that I can make sure my content at least looks like good content to them.

Keith:                    Exactly. Awesome. So we’ve talked about the very top of the funnel, which is SEO, how you get your leads. No paid at all or any

Josh Doody:        None.

Keith:                    Or social or not social organic, which is-

Josh Doody:        Organic. I spent, like I almost said I’m not spent a dollar, I spent I think like $10 on Google ad words as an experiment, like three years ago, it was a podcast called, man, I feel bad. It was Joe Mellon’s podcast. It was where they were just doing experiments. It was like, we’re going to run this. It was a really cool idea and I don’t think they’ve shipped in a while, but it was like, they talk to me and they say, “Here’s an experience that I think you should try that might move the needle for your business.” And their experiment was try some Google ad words. And so I did. And then I did the Google ad words, we looked at results and I went back and talked to them about the results like a week later and that all shipped as one episode. Super cool.

Keith:                    Interesting. That’s a really cool idea.

Josh Doody:        And so it turned out that like I could get some leads through Google AdWords but it wasn’t super, the ROI just wasn’t super great. And so … but that’s the only, literally the only time I’ve ever spent money on ads. And I think as part of that, we also spent like a few bucks on LinkedIn, so we did right. People hours on LinkedIn and it turns out that they’re just so expensive to get people to pay attention to you that I just punted and I never mess with it. Especially if your SEO game is so strong, like the ads don’t matter at that point because you’re at the top of your choice. I’m like, well, okay, well I can pay, 50 cents or a dollar per click or something. Well, I’m going to get thousands of clicks anyway. So unless I’m pointing it to a very specific thing, like if I can narrow in on a very specific high dollar customer on a high value page or something like that, maybe I would do it. But I’m going to get a hundred thousand clicks this month if I don’t even turn my computer on.

Josh Doody:        So I don’t know why I would pay 50 cents if it just sends a click for like another thousand clicks or something, unless it’s going to be like a huge ROI.

Keith:                    Right. So, so let’s go on to the next step of the funnel, which is really the opt-in or as people get onto your list. So you have the two kind of segments, you have your coaching and then you have kind of the non coaching, lower price point product side of things. So you’ve segmented them either through right message or through what content they’re looking at, and then how do you bring that into an opt-in and into a lead.

Josh Doody:        So, you correctly identified that like I’ve never really thought about this before, but I’ve always thought of three segments, but it’s really the top is there are two segments, either you’re coaching prospect or you’re not once you’re in the not coaching process.

Josh Doody:        So the coaching prospect side is really simple. That just goes to pages that are focused on negotiating offers like at Amazon things. And I’m saying, “Hey, click here to apply.” So that’s, there was no lead magnet there, just an application that they fill out and I give him a call.

Josh Doody:        On the other side is those three segments. Let’s, it’ll be easier I think if we just focus on one segment and there’s one that you and I have worked on a couple of years ago and then I’m also that I’m currently working on now and I’ve iterated since then, so maybe we’ll focus on that one. And that is people who need to negotiate a job offer eminently. And so they would Google. The most common way that they find me is either they just Google, like salary negotiation guide, which is I rank really high for just the term salary negotiation. Which was that was one of my early goals was actually one of my first goals was Patrick McKenzie, who I talked about earlier has a really amazing article on salary negotiation for engineers. And I was like, I want to outrank Patrick that’s how I negotiated.

Josh Doody:        So I ended up like, I managed to get to like the first page and sometimes I’m the first result for the term salary negotiation. If you look at the other people on that page, it’s like last or pay scale you know, muse, like all these huge sites and then little old me. So they’ll be Googling for things like salary negotiation, salary negotiation, email sample, how to counter offer, that kind of thing. And when they hit my site, the first thing I give them is just a really long detailed article on how to do that thing. And so the one, the most traffic I get is to a page.

Josh Doody:        This is like anybody who does SEO will know where this came from. But salary negotiation emails sample is the slogan, which is like, people don’t say that in English, but they type it into Google all the time. And so you come to the page and you see a really long detailed article. A lot of times it will have like a table of contents and that’s how long it is. Which was partially for SEO, but also partially just because I know that there are people who are going to have different needs and they’re moving quickly. So once you’re on that page, for example, on the salary negotiation email sample, I’ll walk you through and thousands of words, this is how you should write that email, here’s what you need to be thinking about and all this stuff.

Josh Doody:        And then there’s a little opt-in that says, “Hey, if you want to actually get the template that I use with my clients, which is true, then give me your email address and I’ll send it to you right now.” And I send him a PDF. So this is, I think really an interesting topic that could be, could be useful for folks who are listening.

Josh Doody:        The first version of that lead magnet I believe was actually 10 email templates that I had written. And so it was like, “Hey, if you like this template, get more templates.” And so it would be like there’s the standard counter offer template in a low ball template for the offer that you think is like exceptionally low. And then how to respond to a counter offer when you have other offers in hand. And it was 10 of them, right? How to decline a job offer, all that kind of stuff. And so I was giving that away and my opt-in rates on these pages strong negotiation pages where like 1%, it’s like 1% of visitors would often, which actually isn’t terrible. It’s not great, but it’s not terrible in terms of opt-in rates. You can go much lower, much higher. It’s not like a homepage, so I wouldn’t expect you have 10% but 1% is kind of on the low end.

Josh Doody:        And so I decided one day I was like, I think these are really valuable templates. This is really the impetus for me is, I think these are so valuable. I don’t like that I’m giving them away. I think I should give free stuff away to an extent. But there is appointment, I’m getting emails in my inbox, they’re like, “Hey, thanks for those email templates. Got 10 bucks yesterday” And it’s like a common occurrence and I’m just giving away a $10,000 value thing, shouldn’t I sell that? And so I was like, I’m going to run experiment. I know this will probably cost me opt-ins. It’ll get me like below 1% or whatever, but instead of giving away 10, I’m going to give away one and sell the ten. That was my experiment.

Keith:                    Right.

Josh Doody:        So, and I think maybe the, actually the opt-in rate might’ve been like two or 3%, but I expected it to drop in half or something. Right? So I go from 10 templates down to one, they’re free, I’m pitching them on the page. There’s an exit intent modal and all that good stuff. And what I found was as soon as I did that the opt-in rate went up like more than doubled. So like 5% plus. And I think it’s good if people were like, I don’t want 10 templates, I want this template.

Keith:                    I want the singular thing that solves the problem. Not a bunch of just extra stuff.

Josh Doody:        Yes. So, that was first of all just, I mean I had, like I said, I like to believe that I’m engineering everything I do, I definitely thought, well, I’m going to get a lower opt-in rate when I give them fewer templates, but maybe some of those people who opt in will buy the templates and so I’ll be able to make money on some of the people who do opt in, whereas I can’t make any money on them now.

Josh Doody:        And so it turns out that my opt-in rate like doubled and one of 1% of the people who actually opted in would then buy the templates. [crosstalk 00:27:56] I mean it’s like, I could, it was, it was the first kind of uh-huh moment for me. When it came to like weird business strategy stuff where I was like, that’s the opposite result of what I expected. I did not see that coming. And so really my takeaway from that was I need to run more experiments. I need to try more crazy stuff because I thought this was going to have the opposite effect than I’d hoped I’d sell a little bit. Instead, I’d doubled opt-ins and also had pen to be able to sell those same templates that I’ve given away to thousands of people for free, for 50 bucks now.

Josh Doody:        So it wasn’t even like a $5, the product that I was selling behind it, it was $50 product. So, so the summary is you go, you hit my page, you read about how to do this thing. If it’s negotiating a job offer or if it’s specifically writing a counter offer email, I say, “Hey, you’re doing this. You probably could use an email template to help you with this. Give me your email address. I’ll send it to you right now as a nice well formatted PDF.” And then currently I think that page gets 5 to 6% opt-ins.

Keith:                    Wow.

Josh Doody:        And then, and that’s the main page. There are other ones that get, 3%, 4% and then behind that, about 1% of those people convert to buy something from me.

Keith:                    And as you’re saying that 5% to 6%, I mean, people also have to understand that this is organic traffic. Right?

Josh Doody:        These are like very … I’m not using this term disparaging, but this is the term of art. They’re low quality leads, right?

Keith:                    Right.

Josh Doody:        These are, these are people who are, they’re just going to hit, read the page, you’re going to skim it. They’re going to see the thing they want. They’re going to bounce. They’re just, yeah, they’re not looking to begin any kind of an newsletter or email or business relationship with anyone. There’s looking for an answer to a question.

Keith:                    It’s very different than a Facebook ad where you might be wanting more like a 10 to 20% conversion rate, but that’s because it’s very targeted and also you’re paying two to $3 for each person coming in.

Josh Doody:        That’s right. Two things I want to mention there that I think really tie into that. There’s one, we do a lot of split tests and we always try to get our clients and everyone we talked to to always throw in a crazy split test and the clients were always like, no, it’s not on brand. No, it’s not going to work. It’s like, that’s the point. The point is to get out of your comfort zone and find something that doesn’t work just like you were doing. It’s like, let’s try … like the assumption is leads are going to go down. Maybe we’ll get some conversions on the sales side, et cetera. But you had the opposite result, right. Because you don’t know what’s going to happen until you test it.

Josh Doody:        If you just went on what you think is going to happen, the company’s never going to change. Your marketing is never going to change because your ideas are not going to change unless you’re trying something new.

Keith:                    Yup.

Josh Doody:        So, it’s really interesting that you say that because I think I’m really early on this, but I think this is kind of going to be what my next book is about. So all right. I think, you know, I’m an engineer and I know that you come from a similar background. We tackle problems in a very technical way. And I used to play a lot of poker and so I’m much more risk-seeking than the typical person would be. And so what you’re kind of describing as like the really early stage, kind of small business version of the innovator’s dilemma where it’s like, well, I know this is working. I just want to do it better. Where the answer might often be, I know this is working, but what if that’s not even the best thing to do with this other things is the better thing to do. And sometimes you don’t, you don’t sort of tweak and innovate your way forward on one idea. You have to jump off the track and then switch tracks and jump on another track and that’s when you find the hockey stick.

Josh Doody:        And so that was the, the first time when I switched from like the 10 free to the one free templates. I mean my opt-ins just overnight, there’s a stairstep like if you look in Google at op-to rates, it literally as a stairstep function where it’s like, Ooh, just does the whole site just doubles overnight. Like I’m doing nothing. Same number of visitors. It’s twice the email opt-ins. Right. And so that seems like a crazy idea. It seems like I’m giving them less why would that happen? I did not anticipate the result, but just the fact that I tried it.

Josh Doody:        So now I actually have to like pulling the reins on myself because I’m constantly wanting to do crazy stuff. And I’m like, no, I’m I only one crazy thing at a time because you can obviously if you’re trying eight crazy things at a time, first of all, you can’t measure results very well. But second of all you could cause like real damage to your business, you know? And so you want to, like you said, like if you’re doing an AB split test, maybe add a C for crazy.

Keith:                    Right? Exactly. You have your control, you have two solid options and then you have the crazy option.

Josh Doody:        Yeah. But I think everyone should be doing that, especially when you’re early and especially when you’re sort of a small business. Most of the time the reason you’re able to create the business that you’re creating is that you’re doing something different or you’re doing the same thing. Other people are doing any different way. And so there is no roadmap for me. The most challenging thing about this business and you and I, gosh, I mean how many hours did you and I talk about this early on.

Josh Doody:        There was no roadmap from any fault. I didn’t know what I was doing and so I will talk to or I would talk to other smart people and say, “Help me think about this funnel or the sales page or what I to pitch to people because I can’t go look at another business.” There isn’t another person, Ruby is maybe the closest thing to what I’m doing. And the salary negotiation stuff for him is a side thing. It’s not his primary business. And so I could look at what Ruby was doing and I did learn some things about what Ruby was doing, but even he isn’t doing, I can’t copy Ruby I wouldn’t want to, but even if I wanted to, I can’t.

Keith:                    He already got the … you’re right, he’s already there. He’s owning that space.

Josh Doody:        And so I have to figure out like how do I do my own thing and my own space where there is nobody to follow. And I think really it’s important early on to take risks and to set yourself up to be able to take those risks. That’s the important thing for me is I messed with my coaching pricing sometimes and that’s caused some dry spells. I don’t have any coaching coming in. It’s okay because I made sure that I set some of my profits aside. I’ve got a buffer in the bank. And so that makes me much more anxious to just try random stuff.

Josh Doody:        What happens if I change my entire pricing model? What if I give away one instead of 10? What’s going to happen? And the answer is, I don’t, it could cost me money, but that’s okay. I’ve got money in the bank and I’ll just burn that money and I can always just hit reset if it doesn’t work right. And I think that, that’s important as well, which is to make sure, and I think you and I both read profit first, but to have that buffer there to be able to say, okay, I don’t know if this is going to work or not, but I can try it because it’s not going to bankrupt the company.

Josh Doody:        And it’s the same, back when I was doing consulting, when I was having those dry spells, I always thought, “Oh man, I got to take in any client that comes in the door because I need this money.” I need to make that 60K at 80K payroll every month. All my employees are paid. And yeah, it forces you to make bad decisions and to be able to go and and have that freedom to, to experiment a little bit more and know that it’s not running to bankrupt you is I think really important.

Keith:                    Yep. So I haven’t read profit first, but I’ve read a lot of people who read profit first and a lot of my friends and it like essentially read the book at that point.

Josh Doody:        The reason I haven’t read it is people describe what they’re doing and I’m like, yeah, that’s pretty much what I do. Like it’s just the … and I think it’s because I’ve taken ideas from different people. Actually we, I mentioned Brennan earlier, I think the way that I do my bookkeeping and my sort of slicing off money for taxes and profit and stuff that came from what I knew Brennan happened to do. Right. But there were a lot of other people I know who’ve read the book and when they describe it, I’m like, yep. But yeah, you should do that. Yeah. Also I want to give credit to somebody. So, so Robert Williams at folio, I don’t know if you know Robert?

Keith:                    Mm-hmm (affirmative)

Josh Doody:        But he was also incremental or instrumental in the, when I went from 10 to one and started selling those email templates, he helped me a lot with making that transition and also just kind of putting my head down and knocking through the wall. So I just want to give him credit. He was an advisor on that and he’d directly helped me create that funnel and create that product, which has like, it’s either my best selling or second best selling product. So anyway, just credit to Robert Williams portfolio.

Keith:                    And we’ll put that in the show next because Robert is amazing to be honest.

Josh Doody:        Oh he’s fantastic. If you should check this stuff out just to see his unique minimalist, really great design and copywriting. I love looking at his stuff because you look out and you’re like, man this is so simple and so good. Yeah, it’s great. He’s really good at that stuff. Yeah.

Josh Doody:        Oh one other thing I want to talk about real quick with the bonuses is that I saw this a couple of times with people we’ve worked with where they keep adding more and more bonuses into the products they’re selling and conversion rate went down and yeah, no one could understand why until we started getting support requests. It’s like we actually got a couple of support requests. It’s like, “Hey, do I have to get these bonuses.” Because I really don’t want them? Where am I going to put them all? Where am I going to put them all?

Josh Doody:        And B, I’m trying to go through this first course or this first PDF or whatever. Yeah. And then I, I’m overwhelmed because I’ve got these 800 other things that I’m going to be getting emails about as well. It’s like “I have all this stuff now that I have to go through. I’m overwhelmed.” It’s paradox of choice. If you read that book is the same thing. You have so much stuff just overwhelming you that you just shut down and say, “Nope, I’m just going to stop right there?” Where if it’s a single thing that’s like, “Hey, get this” you’re like it’s a easy decision to make.

Josh Doody:        So now, I’ve been tooting my own horn a little bit. I feel like I can, so now I’m going to have a little confession time with you.

Keith:                    All right.

Josh Doody:        I’ve gotten pretty good SEO. I get good opt-ins. A lot of email opt-ins I can sell till I can a nontrivial number of those people in one of my funnels. It’s not amazing, but there is money coming in. On the other side is what my book Fearless Salary Negotiation. So you can buy the paperback on Amazon is 50 bucks is price high to reflect the premium value of the product. And also just to make people kind of go, “Huh who is this guy think he is?” Because I want them to know.

Josh Doody:        And then you can also buy my eBooks and stuff like that for my site. So there’s a page sales page for that. You’ve help me with the sales page in the past and it does pretty good. And there are currently two tiers offered. There’s my basic bundle, which is like, it’s the book. And in the book I also created like spreadsheets that you can use to help you do calculations and estimate your market value. Like we talked about earlier, email templates that come the way. It’s all the … it’s the book plus a company materials, it’s 50 bucks ebook bundle.

Josh Doody:        And then there’s the complete bundle. So the complete bundle started is that plus three the video courses on the main concepts in the book that happened to reflect the three funnels I mentioned to you, which are interviewing, negotiating new offer, trying to get a raise and then some supplementary courses on how to estimate your market value and stuff like that.

Josh Doody:        So that was the complete model. So it was like 49 for that and I think I chose 239 which is like a dumb price that needs to be fixed. But anyway, yeah for the complete bundle. So and then like I created another thing like some more email templates. I was like, Oh tosses email templates in there. And then I was like, you know what, I had this book on how to write business email is pretty good and most of these people are professionals. They probably want to run video home that in there too.

Josh Doody:        And then there was … and then all of a sudden now I’m working with Alex Hillman on some stuff right now. And he was like, “So you just turn this into like just like a grab bag of stuff that you’ve done. It’s like all your stuff ever.” So it’s not a complete bundle of fearless salary. It’s like just a complete, like Josh has career stuff. And so I think that it’s probably converting poorly and would convert better one if I just picked a a non stupid price 239 is just a bad price point.

Josh Doody:        But too, if it was … even if the stuff is in there and I put it as bonuses, then I don’t mention them or something. Or if I just trimmed the fat and said, “Here’s what you get is these five core things, here’s what they do for you.” I think it would probably would do better. And so that’s like you said, because I think a lot of people probably look at that and they scratch it and they go, “Well, I would like to know how to do X but I don’t really care about all this other stuff and I don’t want to pay for that.”

Josh Doody:        So that’s one problem. When you put [crosstalk 00:39:10] they know I’m paying for those bonuses whether I want to or not. Right?

Keith:                    Right.

Josh Doody:        It’s part of the package that I’m buying. And so in a way I think that all the extra stuff that you throw in waters it down. And so I need to … I don’t know what to do about that, but like it’s on my list of I need to fix that and make the complete bundle more of a complete bundle of money book rather than a complete set up. Just stuff that Josh has done. It’s all super valuable. That’s as frustrating to me as I want to give it to people. It’s really valuable stuff. But-

Keith:                    I think that’s good for a cross sell.

Josh Doody:        It’s good for cross sell, but also it’s like, I think one thing you can give people is focus. You can give them, this is what you need to do, this is what you need to focus on. And I do not give that to them when they buy the complete bundle. I give them stuff instead. And those bundles. I think it’s important to have anything you include with a product, specialty, a paid product to be a level up, something that levels people up and makes it easier to accomplish the goal and not just like turn it into a grab bag. Because when you’re looking at a grab bag, what you’re saying is just like you said, you’re still paying for this. You’re paying extra money in order to have these things that you might not want, but you have to make those extras and those bonuses really take the core product and we always talked about bonuses and tiered pricing should make people accomplish things faster or accomplish things better. Right?

Josh Doody:        So one of those two things. So either it’s checklists or things that, or like Nathan Barry had a good one for his, I don’t remember what it’s called anymore. I think it was designing Apps where you got the ebook

Keith:                    And then like the App design handbook or something like that.

Josh Doody:        App design handbook where the ebook was the main one. And then the second level was actually the templates that he used in Photoshop or whatever it was. It’s like this is how you get there faster. Now you’re not reading a book and having to do it. It’s like, here’s the actual templates and the sketch files and all that that you can use.

Josh Doody:        And then the last one was like videos of him actually building it out in real time. And all of these things level up, that initial product. It’s not this grab bag of “Oh, here’s my book on no authority. Right? Or here’s my other book that’s tangentially related.” Every bonus here that you’re paying for, whether or not as sellers, we think bonuses free. No, people see that you’re paying for these bonuses. If they’re leveling you up, then people want them. If they’re not, then people have to make a decision about whether it’s worth it or not.

Josh Doody:        Which, I mean, now that I think about it, like when I, when I made the complete bundle Fearless Salary Negotiation. My idea with the video courses was like two fold. One was everybody’s doing tiers on their MPO products right now and I got to do that.

Keith:                    Which you do seriously great.

Josh Doody:        And the second one was okay, but how can I augment a book that you would read to be a thing that people might get more value from or learn faster? And so that’s why I said, well, instead of reading this chapter, I’m going to create an hour long course of like eight lessons that shows you what I’m doing in a chapter and there is visual stuff happening on the screen. So it does augment the book. It says you read the book, but I learned personally speaking for Josh now, like I learn visually.

Josh Doody:        So like when I see the thing and I hear somebody talking about the thing, I learned a lot more than I do just reading stuff on a page. And so know if I’m giving you worksheets or email templates, I can show you this is what I’m doing on this worksheet. This is my philosophy and you can see it and it’s just keynote, but it’s better. Whereas when I start piling the other stuff in, I’m not doing any, I’m no longer augmenting the core product. I’m adding other ancillary things to it. That might be good or even valuable, but maybe not to that person at that time and they don’t make the core product better.

Josh Doody:        And things that … I mean, one example of something you could use to level it up would be something like a mock interview where you’ve prerecorded interview questions and you’re sitting there behind the desk and you’re like, “Play this video” And it plays and then they have to do a response and it’s like, “Okay, here’s how you should have respond it.” And like that practice, right? That’s something that gives people a chance to level themselves up and his core in his part of that core product.

Keith:                    Right.

Josh Doody:        As opposed to like a book on, like you said, like Nathan Barry throwing authority in. He didn’t do that. Authority is a great book. Or me throwing my mastering business email book in there. Like that’s a nice thing but it’s not going to help you get better interviews. If anything, it’s a distraction. Right? You probably shouldn’t take time to look at that right now. And so now I’m giving you things, that I’m forcing you to make a choice about. Should I, Josh just gave me this, because he’s told me some stuff like should I read this book right now?

Josh Doody:        My answer will be, no, don’t read that right now, which means maybe I shouldn’t give it to them or maybe I should send that later or something like that. And this is something you can do with the automation funnels where you know that it takes people a month or, or six weeks or two months to go through the initial product and then afterwards you just send them something that’s like, “Hey, how’d that all go? By the way, I want to give you this free copy of my mastering business book.” All right. So you can still have it and still garner goodwill.

Josh Doody:        And I think that, and the research that we’ve done has shown that a bonus that you have not announced and comes in later is so much more valuable and makes people so much happier then a bonus that they had to decide at the beginning if they were paying for them.

Keith:                    Totally agree. So I do want to be conscious of our time, but is there any the other part of the funnel that you kind of want to discuss that you’re like, okay, this was fricking awesome that we found out or anything like that?

Josh Doody:        So again, I do. Yes, the answer is yes. There’s a qualifier here, which is, remember that the funnel that I’m describing is designed for people who are in a very serious time crunch. So I’m solving a thing called the timing problem, that I call the timing problem, which is, there’s a bigger difference between what I’m describing and maybe somebody who wants to learn how to play the piano, right? Like they’re expecting it’s going to be months and you have to nurture them for a long time. Whereas what I’m doing is I’m saying, “Hey, you came to me for help with this let me help you right now.”

Josh Doody:        So one thing that I do is, first of all, I went down to one email template. And I think a lot of that has to do with the fact that people are scrambling and they just want the one thing, what’s the one thing that I can do right now to not screw this up? And so they get the email template.

Josh Doody:        Then on the thank you page and this was your idea, I’m almost positive. So I redirect them. I say, “Hey, thanks for giving me your email. That templates on the way. It’ll be there five or 10 minutes” Which just sort of buys me time to convert kit and do its thing and kick the email over to them so it doesn’t, so they don’t, they might expect it to show up right away and sometimes it’s not going to because of the internet or full or whatever.

Josh Doody:        So and so what I do on the thank you page, say I say, “Hey”, and then I pitch them on something. I say, you’re obviously negotiating an offer and then, this is what I’ve been working on with Alex Hillman lately is making this a better pitch. But I do tell them about a product with a buy button on the thank you page, and it does two things. One is occasionally that’s going to convert. I don’t actually expect it yet to convert. I expect it to just put a little blink in their brain that says, “Hey, I can actually pay money to get more help with this.”

Josh Doody:        And so what I do is I always over index on quality. So anything that you get from me, I want you to go, “Wow, this is, this was pretty good.” And so when you get that email template, five minutes later, there’s going to be a reminder, another link to buy the salary negotiation crash courses at the bottom of that email with a free email template.

Josh Doody:        And so I want you to open the template and go, “Man, this is pretty good.” And yes, Josh gave me a template to counter offer. But what happens next? And so that’s what I’m emphasizing to them. It’s like, listen, this is the first step and negotiate it. You need to send us counter offer template. But there’s other stuff that you don’t know that’s coming and I’m going to tell you about that and follow up emails over the next few days. Or you could just buy the salary negotiation crash course.

Josh Doody:        And so I think the thank you page is key. I think this is something that I’m thinking more about and it’s a place where I think there’s a lot of people leaving value on the table either pitching a product or if you’re on a slower burn, like a longer timeline funnel, putting some kind of a survey on that page or getting some kind of feedback. What are you looking for? How can I help you, whatever it is. To get better stuff in front of them, to segment them or just to learn more about what people are looking for when they come there. I think it’s really important as opposed to like, “Thanks, check your inbox” And there’s nothing on the page. I think that’s a waste of page.

Keith:                    It’s such a wasted page and everything. And I think we did talk about this because this is a strategy that I’ve found working God for the last nine years, which is on that thank you page. Always give them something to do. And we’ve had a number of clients that I have a sale on there and consistently 2% uptake on that sale for a small product like sub $57 product, we see a 2% across every niche across every industry, across every offer. It’s amazing the pickup we get on these things.

Josh Doody:        So you can sell there or you can survey. You can, you should do something on your thank you page. You should redirect them. I started redirecting and thank you pages because it’s the easiest way for me to track goal completions in Google analytics, which is the primary kind of top of funnel thing that I use. But it turns out like also that’s another touch point for you to say, “Hey, you gave me your email address. The thing is on its way. Now, let me tell you about this or ask you about this or why don’t you tell me about what you need or here’s a video of just a thing that’s going to be really helpful to you right now, or whatever it is.” Give them something, like you said, give them something to do, to learn more or to, purchase a better version of the thing or whatever. So that’s the, first thing that happens when you opt-in.

Josh Doody:        And then I began sending, first of all, I send them the free thing. And then I send a nurture sequence, which is kind of the next phase for me to work on. But that nurture sequence is basically like, I know that there are five or six key things that people noticed to negotiate needs to know to negotiate offers. And so I try to educate them on those things. So like the first thing is what’s your walkaway number, which is kind of going back to you and I talked about understanding your market value as a baseline. And so your walkaway number should be before you get the offer. What do you think is the number that you will not except for. Right? Which for most people is like, they go, Oh, I don’t even know I should really think about that. I thought it was just a go, no go kind of thing. And I’m saying, no, you can quantify this. Like what is the number? And so I educate them that way. Then of course at the end of each email is like, “Hey, if you want to know how to use your walkaway number to actually negotiate tactically salary negotiation crash course.” And so I just keep reminding them that over like the week after that.

Josh Doody:        So that’s pretty much that whole funnel. And then they follow into my kind of normal, here are my best articles and here’s my weekly newsletter funnel. But that funnel that we go through is pretty much what I described, which is Google, read the article, free email template, see the product that I’m pitching on the Sankey page, get the free email template in your email, your inbox and then get valuable lessons over the next seven days. But also just a quick one paragraph pitch with a link to say if you want to level up, if you want to do this faster, if you want to learn what I know, Salary Negotiation Crash Course.

Keith:                    Yup. And that goes back to what we were talking about where everything should level up from where they are, right. Because those are the things that are going to convert people as you find out what their main pain point is and then set that to level up. I do want to talk about one thing real quick before I let you go because I always found this interesting you said that, people are very time conscious at this point, right. They need to solve this problem right now. And your original funnel was I think 14 days.

Josh Doody:        Yeah. Was a long time.

Keith:                    What was kind of the switch in your head that went off that it’s like, Oh, wait a minute. Why am I making people wait 14 days before I sell them on a product?

Josh Doody:        Yeah, it was 14 days and I really wasn’t even pitching. Like I was one of the, I’m a classic, like I didn’t know what I was doing when I started, so I was selling info products. I was very timid about it. Right. So like, “Oh, I need to make sure, like I built a bridge or with this, this person and like build a relationship with them before I tell them.” And it’s like, “Well, no, that’s not how that works.” First of all, I already gave him something valuable, but second of all, there’s just not time for that.

Josh Doody:        And so I talked to Brennan Dunn one day Brennan and he’s the first person who said, “Oh, I think you just need a shorter funnel here.” And so, he helped me understand and so actually I talked to Brennan. He helped me realize there was a shorter funnel. I started actually surveying people and saying, when are you negotiating your offer? And the answer that I got back on like it’s like somewhere between 60 and 80% of the people, it was like “Now” And so what I realized was I literally had a window that was hours wide, so I pitch them on something and show them value and sell them a thing and then the other people might still be around later.

Josh Doody:        But that was the trigger for me. As Brennan said, this needs to be a shorter funnel because they have an eminent need right now. There is no time for a two week nurture sequence. They do not need it. And then what I was actually pitching them also was the products was my book, which if somebody has a job offer in their hand right now, the least useful thing in the universe for them is a two week nurture sequence followed by a pitch for a book. They don’t want to read a book. Even if I pitched them the book the second they meet me, they don’t want to read a book. They’re not like, I want to have time.

Keith:                    They need, they have an interview tomorrow.

Josh Doody:        I need to do this thing right now, like somebody is waiting on me to respond to a job offer now and I don’t know what to do, but I know I should do something. And so that’s where Brandon was like, “I think that you need to re look at this.” It’s got to be a shorter funnel and I think you need to sell them something that’s actually aligned to helping them what they’re doing now. So, that was the real trigger. And so that’s where I first I said 10 free down to one free template, I’ll sell them the 10 templates. And then now I’ve transitioned from sell them the 10 templates to I’m just going to bundle that all into the salary negotiation crash course, which existed anyway. And I’m going to sell them a course on how to negotiate this job offer that you’re dealing with right now.

Josh Doody:        And so that’s kind of where I am now. What I found very early on, but it looks like conversion rates to sales for here’s a free email template up to 10 email templates. Very similar to conversion from, here’s a free email template too. Here’s a course on how to do this with all this other email templates. The differences is the prices twice as much.

Keith:                    Right.

Josh Doody:        So now I’m offering a $97 product with a bigger upsell behind it. And the, the opt in rate seems to be very similar. I don’t have enough data yet to say for sure, but I think it’s still going to be around 1% of people who often will buy this thing.

Keith:                    That’s mind blowing.

Josh Doody:        So it was Brennan that kind of, nudge me to think about that. And then Robert Williams at that folio is the person who kind of helping create that funnel, decide what to sell them in the nick of time. And then I rolled that out like April of 2018 and because like I said, I think my second best selling product last year.

Keith:                    Wow.

Josh Doody:        Just basically is money. Because remember I wasn’t … I basically wasn’t converting any of those people before, because by the time I tried to sell them, they had already finished negotiate and probably had started at their new job. And so I was like, “Hey, remember when you were negotiating a couple of weeks ago? I wrote a book about that. Do you want to buy it?” And they’re like, I’m so,

Keith:                    This is what Adam saying, this is information that would’ve been useful yesterday?

Josh Doody:        Except mine wasn’t even that good. It was like two weeks ago. I really could have offered you a lot of value to me. You could be making $50,000 more if you had a time machine. You and I together really screwed this up. Let me show you how much you should read this book. So you know, how much money you left on the table two weeks ago when I could have gone to, but I chose not to. Yeah, that’s pretty much what was going on.

Keith:                    Wow. Our address. Thank you so much for talking through this funnel and talking about the way that … the thought process behind all this. I find it absolutely. Yeah. Just interesting and amazing. Just where all the ideas come from and how a lot of them are just chance that you’re like, “Oh, look at that.”

Josh Doody:        Be open to chance, embrace chance, right. Talk to smart people who have a lot of smart ideas or good ideas and then just let them bounce around and sometimes something will tumble out and you’d be like, you know what, “let me just take a shot and see what happens.”

Keith:                    So where can people find you on the internet?

Josh Doody:        Sure. So the place that I engage with people the most freely is on Twitter. So I’m Josh Doody on Twitter. And I’m on the are all the time. I’m super quick to respond. And you can also find me @fearlesssalarynegotiation.com so on the homepage there, you’ll find all kinds of pointers to resources and things. So those are the two places that you should focus. And if you’re interested in the coaching offering, which Keith you and I didn’t talk about, but if you want to see what I’m doing there, if you’re somebody that I could help negotiate a job offer from a big tech company, that’s fearlesssalarynegotiation.com/coach.

Keith:                    And we’ll link all that in the show notes. Josh thanks so much for joining us.

Josh Doody:        Thanks for having me, Keith. It was good to be here.