Creating More Efficient SOPs with Say Gabriel

We’re back with another episode of DBO with Keith Perhac. This week, Keith chats with Anansi’s Say Gabriel. Say’s main goal in life is to create cohesive systems that support strong communities.

Frustrated by watching stressed-out digital leaders get mired in constantly shoring up shoddy systems, Say set her focus to the digital world a decade ago, just as it was rising in impact on everyday life. Today, Say helps agency leaders troubleshoot and build strong marketing, operations, and admin systems.

In this interview, Keith and Say discuss:

  • The importance of modifying your typical checklist SOP
  • The differences and the benefits of both a top-down system and a bottom-up system
  •  How she reduced her team’s revision process from 2-3 week to just 45 minutes

Say’s motto for her team is, “Done is the new perfect.” She believes failure is just the first step to success and she wants to get you just as excited as she is about effective processes and how they can not only help you, but they can help your team, your clients, your marketing, your sales, and so much more.

Find Say at:

Rylee Mathis

Rylee Mathis

Rylee Mathis is the Virtual Assistant to CEO of SegMetrics, Keith Perhac. She assists in the curation of DBO content and marketing as well as social media posts and partner outreach for SegMetrics.

Modifying the Typical Sales Funnel with Claire Suellentrop

Claire Suellentrop is an up-and-comer in the marketing world. She dabbled in journalism and entertainment marketing before she began helping SaaS companies like Wistia, FullStory, Edgar, Death to the Stock Photo, and many others get inside their customers’ heads. She then became the co-founder of two companies: and Forget the Funnel which we discuss with her in this enlightening conversation with Keith on Data Beats Opinion.

During the interview we talk about:

  • Modifying the typical sales funnel with Forget the Funnel
  • “Aha” moments and how to find them for yourself and your customer
  • How successful companies like AutoBooks and ProfitWell look at their sales funnel from the bottom instead of the top
  • The value of the customers you already have vs. potential new customers

Find Claire at:

Rylee Mathis

Rylee Mathis

Rylee Mathis is the Virtual Assistant to CEO of SegMetrics, Keith Perhac. She assists in the curation of DBO content and marketing as well as social media posts and partner outreach for SegMetrics.

Descriptive Content & Authentic Marketing with Matt Giovanisci

Matt Giovanisci is a jack of all trades with a broad knowledge of all aspects of marketing. He founded Swim University, co-founded a personal finance brand and podcast called Listen Money Matters, and started a coffee education website called Roasty (which he has since sold). In 2016 he created Money Lab so he could build more brands, make more money, and write off his homebrewing hobby.

Money Lab focuses on No B.S. Marketing – it’s honest, straight forward and cuts to the chase. Which is exactly what my conversation with Matt was like for Data Beats Opinion.

During our interview Matt and I talked about:

  • Honesty and authenticity in marketing
  • Descriptive content over prescriptive content
  • Jack of all trades vs specialization
  • Refining processes through meticulous note keeping and data analysis
  • The moonshot technique

Find Matt at:


Keith Perhac

Data driven lead generation & sales funnels with Brent Weaver

Brent Weaver built his first website at 15, and created his first web-design business at 17. That company grew into a successful, 14-person web agency that was acquired in 2012. Since then has helped thousands of other web professionals master business skills through, his business school for digital agencies. He creates educational programs that help agency owners work on their business to drive additional revenues, increase profits, and create freedom in their life.

In this episode of Data Beats Opinion, Brent and Keith discuss:

  • Understanding what data to look at, interpreting it correctly and following what the data tells you you should do, even when it feels uncomfortable
  • How to decide when a marketing campaign isn’t working
  • What your weekly scorecard should look like and why it’s important to have this data
  • Drilling your goals down to one simple idea that your team can rally behind
  • Using data to help clients decide on where to focus their energy first
  • Risk tolerance, monthly spend threshold and deciding when to move on what the data is telling you
  • The most important info to know to improve lead generation

You can find Brent at:


Keith Perhac

Warm audiences, fresh content & current data: the recipe for successful Facebook ads with Ryan Stewart

Ryan Stewart started his career working for large consulting companies with clients like Target, Best Buy and Bayer, before branching out to start his own growth marketing agency. He’s now the founder of, sharing the systems, processes and tactics he’s used to scale his agencies to 8 figures in revenue. Ryan has a ton of digital marketing experience and had a lot to share during his time on Data Beats Opinion.

Ryan sat down with Keith to discuss:

  • The effectiveness of Facebook’s algorithm and why the biggest variable now is content
  • Using data as a driver when developing successful Facebook Ads
  • Engaging and warming up audiences before re-marketing to them
  • Understanding the motivations that draw people to different networks and how that influences the effectiveness of digital marketing
  • The online channel posing a big advertising opportunity
  • Consistently switching up creative to keep ads fresh
  • The metrics Ryan looks at to gauge the success of his ads
  • The app Ryan’s launching this summer that allows you to bring your APIs right to BigQuery and pipe in the data that you need.

Find Ryan at:


Keith Perhac

Reducing Churn & Increasing Customer Happiness with Val Geisler

Val Geisler helps SaaS and subscription-based e-Commerce brands use email to strategically convert leads, retain customers long term, and close more monthly recurring revenue. Her passion is great email copy, crafting email marketing strategy and helping businesses reduce churn and increase customer happiness. Val is amazing at customer retention and customer communication and I’m super happy to have her on the show.

In this interview with Val, we discuss:

  • The metrics you should know when it comes to your email marketing
  • The benefits of using consultants to scale your SaaS business
  • The importance of asking ‘why’ a lot when it comes to understanding your data
  • The role of building brand affinity to reduce customer churn
  • How to build strong connections with your customers through your onboarding flow
  • Adding a personalized touch to your onboarding to make your customers feel cared about

You can find Val at:



Keith Perhac

Building Talented and Engaged Remote Teams with Jevin Maltais

Jevin Maltais is a software engineer who has hired and managed over 50 remote people over the past decade. He now helps traditional companies become remote so that they can take advantage of the global workforce and lead happier and more productive teams.

He joins Keith to share his expertise on managerial hiring, specifically when it comes to remote teams.

In this talk with Keith, Jevin discusses:

  • Why hiring the best people probably means working with them remotely
  • How offering remote work helps you attract talented people in senior roles
  • Building relationships and your company culture when your whole team is remote
  • The challenges of ‘hybrid’ teams
  • Some of the mistakes team leaders make that damage their relationship with a remote worker
  • The importance of ‘over communication’ for the success of remote teams
  • Tactics you can use to help engage your whole team and build comradery
  • The value of planning remote team hang outs on company time
  • The warning signs and good signs to look for when hiring remote workers
  • Resources for managers leading remote teams

Connect with Jevin:


Keith Perhac

The Importance of Personalization in Online Marketing with Jason Resnick

Jason Resnick helps freelancers get more leads, find better clients and build recurring revenue. Jason started working in eCommerce back when it was next to impossible to get someone to put their credit card online. He’s truly an expert in this space and I’m really excited to have him on the show.

In this interview with Jason, we cover:

  • How Jason got his start in eCommerce
  • The importance of personalization in online marketing
  • Why one of the first things Jason does with his clients is ask them what their customer journey is
  • Helping his clients identify their sales cycle
  • Nurturing customers through email
  • The importance of picking the right lead magnet
  • Using lead scoring
  • Launch style funnels vs evergreen funnels
  • How to make your marketing stand out in a crowded space
  • The value of putting yourself through your own funnels

Connect with Jason

@rezzz on Twitter


Keith Perhac

Keith is the Founder of SegMetrics, and has spent the last decade working on optimizing marketing funnels and nurture campaigns.

SegMetrics was born out of a frustration with how impossibly hard it is to pull trustworthy, complete and actionable data out of his client's marketing tools.

How Zach Goldie Boosted Email Conversion by 87%

Marketing to marketers is always a tricky proposition. As marketers, we get hundreds of emails from various lists a day, and many of us are essentially immune to generic email messaging.

In order to stand out from the background noise, email content aimed at marketers has to be top-notch, while straddling the line of “often enough to not be forgotten” with “not so often that it drives people batty.”

It’s a fine line to walk, and when it was time to look at our lead nurture campaign, we knew we had to do it right.

Explaining the strategy behind our new lead nurture campaign

We recently built a new lead nurture sequence which is converting beautifully. In this article we’ll delve into how we came up with the 

  • underlying strategy, 
  • non-salesy content ,
  • final push for the sell

with advice for applying the concepts to your own campaigns.

Accepting we needed outside eyes

We were geeking out on our own funnel data and found that the lead nurture sequence was a weak link. The short sequence we had was outdated and the long-term nurturing depended on us sending newsletters, which happened… less often than we intended. Our lead magnets such as the Ultimate Tagging Blueprint were popular, but only 12% were then signing up to a trial.

We could have rewritten it ourselves, but we wanted to make sure we were not only providing actionable information, but doing it in a way that was engaging.

We were referred to Zach Goldie, an email copywriter, who helped us rebuild the whole pitch. The resulting sequence is converting beautifully, so we wanted to share how we worked through it.

Realising leads are oblivious of missed opportunities

Zach began by helping us think through the typical mentality of a new subscriber. He quickly pinpointed them as:

They suspect stronger analytics would help but don’t know the opportunities they’re missing, so looking into options sits low down their priorities.

along with added details like how they’re using Google Analytics or their CRM’s limited data, but without an easy way to dig into the numbers.

It is easy to forget that prospects don’t realize the extent of their issues when it’s all we think about. But we accepted that any nurture sequence needed to start from this lack of awareness.

So now we had our aim for the emails – help subscribers realize the implications of their weak analytics.

DIY Guide #1: Pinpoint the lead’s decision making stage

First think through questions about the subscriber’s current state, such as:

  • How are they currently coping with this issue?
  • Are they even aware of the impact or that solutions exist?
  • Is this decision high up their to-do list? If not, why?
  • What’s the gap between your lead magnet and your product?

Then check your emails are relevant to that situation. It might even differ from lead source to lead source.

Picking a blind spot for each email

It’s easy to jump into writing about the features we’re most excited about. Instead Zach stopped to plan how each email will help readers realize how a lack of data is hurting them. 

The aim was to help them discover these blind spots for themselves, to think about data they’re missing and ways it could be helping them. To plan our content we went through the questions that marketers either don’t think to ask or don’t realize they could answer, such as:

  • Which Facebook campaigns bring in repeat buyers?
  • Which upsell generates the most revenue?
  • How long does it take to reach break-even for paid ads?
  • What is the refund or chargeback rate?

From talking to new users, we know most forget that their analytics usually only record signups or first purchases. So, these questions were chosen to help subscribers realize they’re missing data on each funnel step’s long-term impact on their bottom line revenue. 

If the sequence could guide subscribers into considering these questions, SegMetrics can then be introduced as the best way to find answers in a few clicks.

Guiding readers into realising the benefits (not just telling them)

‘Show don’t tell’ is a popular saying among writers, so we applied it to presenting SegMetric’s benefits. Instead of just telling them “you could boost revenue by 90%”, Zach planned out content to walk them through issues so they could discover the problems they had previously overlooked. 

We grouped these data guides into four categories:

1) Data challenges – posing challenges such as whether they know the lifetime revenue of each lead source, giving them a question to chew over with suggestions of what it might reveal.

2) Case studies – showing the revenue lifts that users have achieved, to reinforce that it is actionable data worth digging out, not just pretty graphs and nice numbers.

3) Industry averages – marketers love a good benchmark, so we collected averages from our users that could only be discovered through SegMetrics.

4) Potential tactics – outlining tactics such as offering a high value upsell instead of the current cheaper one, with a note that SegMetrics could track the impact.

Each of these tied back to one of those blind spots we had previously identified, written with a gentle tone acknowledging that it’s understandable to not already know the answers. (Especially since we’ve been doing this for over a decade, and STILL run into issues.)

DIY Guide #2: Content planning

After identifying their decision stage, consider what is needed to bump your service up their to-do list.

  • What is bothering them about their current solution?
  • Are there pain-points they didn’t realize could be solved?
  • Do they realize the impact that signing up will make?

Then plan how to show them these answers, helping it become their own realization instead of just something you’ve told them.

Admitting that yes, there’s a free alternative

As subscribers progress through the sequence they will hopefully start wanting this kind of information for themselves. Zach expected they might start looking for free alternatives, so wanted to stay helpful during those decisions.

Like many SaaS apps, the main alternative is a spreadsheet and lots of time. In fact, almost all of the data SegMetrics reveals can be found with a bit of pivot table magic. 

That’s why we openly suggest they try to DIY it. We first gently mention it in a couple of emails, with rough steps of how to do so. An email then includes the link to our in-depth guide of how to manually calculate the lead value of an opt-in magnet. 

Our good worst-case scenario is they spend two hours generating one KPI, appreciate having those numbers, but then look to SegMetrics to get it in a few clicks next time.

Really this is one big show-don’t-tell.

We could tell them “don’t waste hours trying to DIY this in Excel”, but instead we showed them the alternative and how much drudgery is involved.

This has a double effect of a) showing people that the data that we’re generating is trustworthy, because they can calculate it themselves, and b) that since it takes over an hour to get a single KPI manually, they should do it in a few clicks with SegMetrics next time.

Finally: pitching SegMetrics while addressing remaining objections

A couple of months after they downloaded the lead magnet, we go for a direct pitch.

We outline the trial in terms of what’s included and recap key insights they can find. It’s a nice friendly email, nothing overly clever.

Zach then had fun preempting common objections.

These are the typical concerns that leads have directly asked us or we suspect they won’t admit. We wrote an email to pre-empt each one and show why they should sign up anyway. These objections and counters were roughly:

Cautious it’ll take ages to set up? Talk about our free concierge service and how we walk them through the installation in a quick call.

Don’t want to yet more useless data? Similarly, we offer a free strategy call, helping them make meaningful decisions from their new numbers.

Considering popular alternatives? Link to our existing comparison articles, admitting the (few) cases when the alternative software is better suited.

To finish it off, we then had a short What’s Stopping You? email offering to discuss any concerns we have missed out.

DIY Guide #3: Removing sales blocks

Consider if there are common concerns that might stop them converting.

  • Have they had issues with competing services that you might replicate
  • Is there any nervousness about getting up and running?
  • Are there details about your trial or product that are unclear?

Then plan out an email around each one to help them get past that stumbling block.

Final notes

We’re happy to say that the lead nurture sequence is now happily converting at 187% what it used to, with some of the highest engagement rates we’ve seen — even 12 emails into the funnel. We even worked with Zach again on a similar educational approach for our onboarding sequence.

If you would like to test this strategy yourself, then the key steps are:

  • Consider the decision making state of new leads
  • Identify topics that will push your service up their to-do list
  • Plan out educational content to guide them into action
  • Pre-empt each objection with relevant content

Or alternatively, email Zach for help with your funnel:

DIY Alternative: Talk with Zach

Zach is a copywriter, specializing in landing pages and email sequences. He was instrumental in putting together the strategy we outlined in this article and so we’d highly recommend him if you are looking to improve your conversions.

You can find him here: Zach Goldie, Copywriter


Keith Perhac

Keith is the Founder of SegMetrics, and has spent the last decade working on optimizing marketing funnels and nurture campaigns.

SegMetrics was born out of a frustration with how impossibly hard it is to pull trustworthy, complete and actionable data out of his client's marketing tools.