How to track Frank Kern’s HARDCORE SCALING method with SegMetrics

Want to take your funnels to the next level? Well, we would highly recommend you check out Fran Kern’s Hardcore Scaling YouTube series.

If you don’t know Frank Kern, he’s a marketing legend. He has been one of the top guys for over twenty years, especially in the direct response world. Having come out strong through the various waves of internet marketing changes, he’s definitely a dude worth listening to.

In the series he drops consistent wisdom bombs about how to give your marketing a boost. 

You will also see him using SegMetrics to analyze his own key metrics and marketing performance. These metrics are critical to his method of looking at long-term performance, so we wanted to take you into more detail about exactly how SegMetrics gives you access to the key insights you need to pull off his new strategies.

Focusing on more than attention

Frank defines the four steps to a sale as:

  1. Attention
  2. Lead
  3. Offer
  4. Follow Up

He discusses how most modern marketers typically focus on the attention stage. They spend most of their energy on ad campaigns and landing pages, trying to maximize the number and cost of leads they’re bringing in.

Attention is great, but it’s only the tip of the sales iceberg.

The next three stages are where the real salesmanship kicks in. It’s building up the desire for your product or service, then helping them make the decision to buy.

Think of it like a car dealership. Getting people in the door is great, but won’t matter if nobody is being offered test drives and your sales technique is turning people off. Getting traffic from ads is the same, it’s only people arriving through the door.

Being Misled by Metrics

This focus on attention and traffic is reinforced by the tools marketers have had access to.

The data within Google Analytics and Facebook’s Ad Manager is mainly designed to look at the Attention stage. With limited tracking and short attribution windows, they can only measure the revenue associated with very simple sales processes, such as an impulse buy in an ecommerce store.

But you can’t measure the full journey with these tools if you’re running more complex sales processes, such as a 30 day email funnel, a subscription trial period or following up with a sales call.

If the only metric marketers can measure is Attention, then it’s no wonder it becomes our sole focus.

After all, any attempts to improve the Lead, Offer or Follow-Up stages feel like stabs in the dark if we can’t measure the impact. You might deploy a new email sequence, but it won’t feel as rewarding when you can’t measure the impact it has had on your sales.

So, that’s why it is crucial to analyze LTV with a tool like SegMetrics.

It lets you analyze the full customer journey across the 4 stages, no matter the funnel length. You can measure the LTV of every lead across weeks, months or years, plus you can see how different funnel strategies affect your revenue.

Want to know the key data Frank Kern looks for? Well keep on reading

Lesson #1: Stop focusing on cost per lead

Cost per lead (CPL) is the key criteria people discuss when evaluating ad campaigns. People will cut campaigns with a high CPL and boost ones with a low CPL.

But really, the only thing that matters is return on ad spend (RoAS).

Unfortunately, not all lead sources are created equally. Far too often, the campaign bringing in cheap leads isn’t actually bringing in customers. Meanwhile, the expensive leads are regularly making purchases. 

What you really need to do is measure RoAS, which campaigns are actually bringing in a return.

SegMetrics helps by: tracking visitors through your funnel, not just until they become leads

Lesson #2: Look at long term RoAS

Don’t be too over eager when looking at your RoAS.

We can’t expect everyone to instantly whip out their credit card and throw money at us. This is where the Follow Up stage comes in.

You need to be patient, giving leads the time they require to decide that yes, they do want your product.

That means your metrics need to be patient too.

Frank gives the example by looking at one of his own campaigns. When looking at the RoAS within 1 week of people clicking the ad, the RoAS was down at 20% suggesting they were wasting money.

But, he then expanded the view to 4 weeks and the RoAS jumped up to 200%! The leads were great, it was just that they needed a few weeks of follow-up before they purchased.

It is only by looking at the long-term RoAS that he was able to assess which ad campaigns were turning a profit.

SegMetrics helps by: tracking lifetime spending per lead, even if purchases happen offline or on a different platform

Lesson #3: Test your offer and follow up

Your follow-up strategy could be secretly losing you sales.

When was the last time you gave your sales funnel the same care and attention you give to your ad campaigns? It is always worth coming up with a new array of ideas to test.

Maybe your webinar topic is missing the mark, you could be better segmenting your list into different groups, or offering a sales call would boost conversions? There are plenty of opportunities to test.

But of course, you’ll want to measure more than just email click rates. Using a tool such as SegMetrics will let you see how each new idea affects the revenue per leads.

SegMetrics helps by: letting you A/B test whole sequences or strategies, along with seeing how different groups of leads respond to each idea

Suggestion #1: Upload lookalike audiences

You probably teach your AIs to send you more traffic like the people who met an initial goal like downloading the lead magnet.

But what if you could use a higher quality indicator? Like just the people who watched the full webinar, booked a sales call or read the full email sequence?

You can use SegMetrics to upload lookalike audiences based on any lead attribute such as actions they are tagged with.

It ties into Frank Kern’s methodology of Behavioral Dynamic Response.

It is all about carefully responding to the lead’s behavior and guiding them through to the sale, instead of just sticking all onto a conveyor belt.

Suggestion #2: Optimize for sales with Conversion Feeder

Even better than indicators of lead quality is knowing which leads made a purchase.

Tools such as SegMetrics’s Conversion Feeder can feed attribution data back to the ad AIs, even if they were outside the inbuilt attribution window.

That means the bots will know which ad clicks bought in actual revenue. They can optimize for traffic that turns into customers, not just leads.

If you then improve your follow-up, there will then be more data to feed the bots, letting them better refine the traffic, and causing a great big positive feedback loop.


Optimizing your marketing means going beyond the Attention stage. And that means going beyond Google Analytics and Facebook’s Ad Manager, and using tools that allow you to track the full lifecycle of your customers.

When your tools limit you to only focusing on Attention metrics, then the only thing you can optimize for is Attention, and lose sight of the revenue sitting right beyond your key metrics. Without lifecycle attribution metrics, any attempts to improve the Lead, Offer or Follow-Up stages feel like stabs in the dark.

Get started with your free trial of SegMetrics today — and start getting the marketing insights you need to pull off the Hardcore Scaling strategies.

Vanessa Copley

Vanessa Copley is a business automation specialist and the founder of Custom Client Journey. She specializes in client journey management and bringing the human touch to your automated experience. In her free time, she enjoys reading science fiction and horror novels, studying real estate, practicing Tang Soo Do and spending time with her amazing children, the love of her life, and their birds and guinea pigs.

Multi-touch Attribution Models with Dan McGaw

Recently Keith chatted with Dan McGaw, the founder and CEO of, formerly known as Effin Amazing, a marketing technology and analytics agency. Dan is also the creator of, a campaign management and data governance tool.

McGaw (the guy, not the company) explains his process for his clients: where he starts, what he recommends for his new customers, and how he navigates the information he collects from that customer’s site analytics. Dan also discusses the process of measuring a business’s touchpoints and the significance of each touchpoint. 

A lot of what McGaw (the company, not the guy) does is help you with governance. What is governance? It’s like the glossary for your website, or even sometimes your entire company. How should an organization be referring to social media websites? What vocabulary should one be using in marketing copy and how can an entire company stay consistent with those words? Dan answers these questions and more. 

You’ll also hear Dan tease a second book while promoting his first, Build Cool Sh*t. Build Cool Sh*t is for the CEOs and the CMOs of a company; Dan skipped all the fluff and got right down to the information that marketers like you are seeking when you buy the guide. 

In this interview with Dan, you’ll learn about:

  • The importance of governance
  • The significance of measuring your business’s touchpoints
  • Why accepting imperfection is key to understanding the limits of your data source
  • Build Cool Sh*t, Dan’s first book

McGaw (the guy AND the company) can be found here:

Keith Perhac

Keith is the Founder of SegMetrics, and has spent the last decade working on optimizing marketing funnels and nurture campaigns.

SegMetrics was born out of a frustration with how impossibly hard it is to pull trustworthy, complete and actionable data out of his client's marketing tools.

Creating More Efficient SOPs with Say Gabriel

We’re back with another episode of DBO with Keith Perhac. This week, Keith chats with Anansi’s Say Gabriel. Say’s main goal in life is to create cohesive systems that support strong communities.

Frustrated by watching stressed-out digital leaders get mired in constantly shoring up shoddy systems, Say set her focus to the digital world a decade ago, just as it was rising in impact on everyday life. Today, Say helps agency leaders troubleshoot and build strong marketing, operations, and admin systems.

In this interview, Keith and Say discuss:

  • The importance of modifying your typical checklist SOP
  • The differences and the benefits of both a top-down system and a bottom-up system
  •  How she reduced her team’s revision process from 2-3 week to just 45 minutes

Say’s motto for her team is, “Done is the new perfect.” She believes failure is just the first step to success and she wants to get you just as excited as she is about effective processes and how they can not only help you, but they can help your team, your clients, your marketing, your sales, and so much more.

Find Say at:

Keith Perhac

Keith is the Founder of SegMetrics, and has spent the last decade working on optimizing marketing funnels and nurture campaigns.

SegMetrics was born out of a frustration with how impossibly hard it is to pull trustworthy, complete and actionable data out of his client's marketing tools.

Modifying the Typical Sales Funnel with Claire Suellentrop

Claire Suellentrop is an up-and-comer in the marketing world. She dabbled in journalism and entertainment marketing before she began helping SaaS companies like Wistia, FullStory, Edgar, Death to the Stock Photo, and many others get inside their customers’ heads. She then became the co-founder of two companies: and Forget the Funnel which we discuss with her in this enlightening conversation with Keith on Data Beats Opinion.

During the interview we talk about:

  • Modifying the typical sales funnel with Forget the Funnel
  • “Aha” moments and how to find them for yourself and your customer
  • How successful companies like AutoBooks and ProfitWell look at their sales funnel from the bottom instead of the top
  • The value of the customers you already have vs. potential new customers

Find Claire at:

Keith Perhac

Keith is the Founder of SegMetrics, and has spent the last decade working on optimizing marketing funnels and nurture campaigns.

SegMetrics was born out of a frustration with how impossibly hard it is to pull trustworthy, complete and actionable data out of his client's marketing tools.

Descriptive Content & Authentic Marketing with Matt Giovanisci

Matt Giovanisci is a jack of all trades with a broad knowledge of all aspects of marketing. He founded Swim University, co-founded a personal finance brand and podcast called Listen Money Matters, and started a coffee education website called Roasty (which he has since sold). In 2016 he created Money Lab so he could build more brands, make more money, and write off his homebrewing hobby.

Money Lab focuses on No B.S. Marketing – it’s honest, straight forward and cuts to the chase. Which is exactly what my conversation with Matt was like for Data Beats Opinion.

During our interview Matt and I talked about:

  • Honesty and authenticity in marketing
  • Descriptive content over prescriptive content
  • Jack of all trades vs specialization
  • Refining processes through meticulous note keeping and data analysis
  • The moonshot technique

Find Matt at:

Keith Perhac

Data driven lead generation & sales funnels with Brent Weaver

Brent Weaver built his first website at 15, and created his first web-design business at 17. That company grew into a successful, 14-person web agency that was acquired in 2012. Since then has helped thousands of other web professionals master business skills through, his business school for digital agencies. He creates educational programs that help agency owners work on their business to drive additional revenues, increase profits, and create freedom in their life.

In this episode of Data Beats Opinion, Brent and Keith discuss:

  • Understanding what data to look at, interpreting it correctly and following what the data tells you you should do, even when it feels uncomfortable
  • How to decide when a marketing campaign isn’t working
  • What your weekly scorecard should look like and why it’s important to have this data
  • Drilling your goals down to one simple idea that your team can rally behind
  • Using data to help clients decide on where to focus their energy first
  • Risk tolerance, monthly spend threshold and deciding when to move on what the data is telling you
  • The most important info to know to improve lead generation

You can find Brent at:

Keith Perhac

Warm audiences, fresh content & current data: the recipe for successful Facebook ads with Ryan Stewart

Ryan Stewart started his career working for large consulting companies with clients like Target, Best Buy and Bayer, before branching out to start his own growth marketing agency. He’s now the founder of, sharing the systems, processes and tactics he’s used to scale his agencies to 8 figures in revenue. Ryan has a ton of digital marketing experience and had a lot to share during his time on Data Beats Opinion.

Ryan sat down with Keith to discuss:

  • The effectiveness of Facebook’s algorithm and why the biggest variable now is content
  • Using data as a driver when developing successful Facebook Ads
  • Engaging and warming up audiences before re-marketing to them
  • Understanding the motivations that draw people to different networks and how that influences the effectiveness of digital marketing
  • The online channel posing a big advertising opportunity
  • Consistently switching up creative to keep ads fresh
  • The metrics Ryan looks at to gauge the success of his ads
  • The app Ryan’s launching this summer that allows you to bring your APIs right to BigQuery and pipe in the data that you need.

Find Ryan at:

Keith Perhac

Reducing Churn & Increasing Customer Happiness with Val Geisler

Val Geisler helps SaaS and subscription-based e-Commerce brands use email to strategically convert leads, retain customers long term, and close more monthly recurring revenue. Her passion is great email copy, crafting email marketing strategy and helping businesses reduce churn and increase customer happiness. Val is amazing at customer retention and customer communication and I’m super happy to have her on the show.

In this interview with Val, we discuss:

  • The metrics you should know when it comes to your email marketing
  • The benefits of using consultants to scale your SaaS business
  • The importance of asking ‘why’ a lot when it comes to understanding your data
  • The role of building brand affinity to reduce customer churn
  • How to build strong connections with your customers through your onboarding flow
  • Adding a personalized touch to your onboarding to make your customers feel cared about

You can find Val at:


Keith Perhac

Building Talented and Engaged Remote Teams with Jevin Maltais

Jevin Maltais is a software engineer who has hired and managed over 50 remote people over the past decade. He now helps traditional companies become remote so that they can take advantage of the global workforce and lead happier and more productive teams.

He joins Keith to share his expertise on managerial hiring, specifically when it comes to remote teams.

In this talk with Keith, Jevin discusses:

  • Why hiring the best people probably means working with them remotely
  • How offering remote work helps you attract talented people in senior roles
  • Building relationships and your company culture when your whole team is remote
  • The challenges of ‘hybrid’ teams
  • Some of the mistakes team leaders make that damage their relationship with a remote worker
  • The importance of ‘over communication’ for the success of remote teams
  • Tactics you can use to help engage your whole team and build comradery
  • The value of planning remote team hang outs on company time
  • The warning signs and good signs to look for when hiring remote workers
  • Resources for managers leading remote teams

Connect with Jevin:

Keith Perhac